1 00:00:00,701 --> 00:00:03,033 ♪♪ 2 00:00:03,033 --> 00:00:04,367 -End gun violence! 3 00:00:04,367 --> 00:00:07,567 -With demands to improve gun safety on the rise... 4 00:00:07,567 --> 00:00:11,467 -Too many guns of the wrong kind are in the wrong hands. 5 00:00:11,467 --> 00:00:14,501 -...state lawmakers are poised to take action this year. 6 00:00:14,501 --> 00:00:17,267 -Tragedies are happening across the country 7 00:00:17,267 --> 00:00:18,968 it seems every week. 8 00:00:18,968 --> 00:00:22,467 -A ban on so-called assault weapons is gaining momentum. 9 00:00:22,467 --> 00:00:25,133 Plus, gun sellers may face more lawsuits, 10 00:00:25,133 --> 00:00:28,767 and gun buyers may be required to take safety classes. 11 00:00:28,767 --> 00:00:30,701 -Look at the difference. -But critics say 12 00:00:30,701 --> 00:00:33,367 gun-control advocates are missing the mark. 13 00:00:33,367 --> 00:00:37,267 -We don't own rifles to assault people with. 14 00:00:37,267 --> 00:00:40,334 -Emotion should not drive our public policy. 15 00:00:40,334 --> 00:00:42,934 -Will stricter gun laws improve public safety 16 00:00:42,934 --> 00:00:45,100 or make it harder for Washingtonians 17 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:46,501 to protect themselves? 18 00:00:46,501 --> 00:00:48,367 -It has impacts on domestic violence. 19 00:00:48,367 --> 00:00:49,901 It has impacts on suicide rates. 20 00:00:49,901 --> 00:00:51,334 -Both sides weigh in. 21 00:00:51,334 --> 00:00:54,601 -Constitutional rights are not subject to public opinion polls. 22 00:00:54,601 --> 00:00:57,234 Taking aim at our state's gun-control laws, 23 00:00:57,234 --> 00:00:59,601 next on "City Inside Out." 24 00:00:59,601 --> 00:01:09,033 ♪♪ 25 00:01:09,033 --> 00:01:18,400 ♪♪ 26 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,367 Welcome to this edition of "City Inside Out." 27 00:01:21,367 --> 00:01:23,567 I'm your host, Brian Callanan. 28 00:01:23,567 --> 00:01:26,334 Amidst an ongoing crisis of gun violence, 29 00:01:26,334 --> 00:01:29,801 advocates have targeted this legislative session in Olympia 30 00:01:29,801 --> 00:01:32,834 to pass some much stricter laws in our state. 31 00:01:32,834 --> 00:01:34,534 Proposals include a ban 32 00:01:34,534 --> 00:01:36,667 on the sale of so-called assault weapons, 33 00:01:36,667 --> 00:01:38,200 a 10-day waiting period, 34 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,567 and required safety classes for those who buy firearms, 35 00:01:41,567 --> 00:01:44,801 and even a provision to make gun sellers and manufacturers 36 00:01:44,801 --> 00:01:47,701 legally liable for negligent sales. 37 00:01:47,701 --> 00:01:49,701 Opponents say these new proposals 38 00:01:49,701 --> 00:01:51,501 will not improve public safety 39 00:01:51,501 --> 00:01:53,400 and infringe upon a right 40 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,400 enshrined in the U.S. and Washington state 41 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,033 Constitutions to bear arms. 42 00:01:58,033 --> 00:01:59,634 But new polling numbers show 43 00:01:59,634 --> 00:02:02,234 lawmakers may be feeling some pressure to act, 44 00:02:02,234 --> 00:02:05,300 and Washington's gun laws are directly in their sights. 45 00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:07,567 ♪♪ 46 00:02:07,567 --> 00:02:09,567 -The Parkland, Florida, school shooting 47 00:02:09,567 --> 00:02:12,267 on Valentine's Day 2018, 48 00:02:12,267 --> 00:02:15,234 where 17 students and staff were killed 49 00:02:15,234 --> 00:02:18,334 changed Robert Schentrup and his family forever. 50 00:02:18,334 --> 00:02:21,267 -Only one of my sisters made it back home alive. 51 00:02:21,267 --> 00:02:24,434 My sister Carmen Schentrup, who was 16 at the time, 52 00:02:24,434 --> 00:02:26,934 was murdered along with 16 of her fellow peers, 53 00:02:26,934 --> 00:02:29,901 teachers, and staff with an assault weapon. 54 00:02:29,901 --> 00:02:32,901 -Schentrup soon turned his grief into action, 55 00:02:32,901 --> 00:02:35,434 advocating with groups like Team Enough 56 00:02:35,434 --> 00:02:37,801 and the Alliance for Gun Responsibility. 57 00:02:37,801 --> 00:02:39,334 -We all want to be safer, right? 58 00:02:39,334 --> 00:02:42,033 We all want to feel secure in our communities. 59 00:02:42,033 --> 00:02:45,367 -Schentrup says the increasing number of school shootings 60 00:02:45,367 --> 00:02:48,901 and other gun-violence incidents since his sister's death 61 00:02:48,901 --> 00:02:52,367 can be linked to an increasing number of gun owners. 62 00:02:52,367 --> 00:02:54,434 Studies show the U.S. now has 63 00:02:54,434 --> 00:02:58,334 roughly 120 guns for every 100 residents -- 64 00:02:58,334 --> 00:03:01,067 by far the highest ratio in the world. 65 00:03:01,067 --> 00:03:05,033 -It is this connection between the saturation of firearms 66 00:03:05,033 --> 00:03:08,033 in our communities and the ease of access to them 67 00:03:08,033 --> 00:03:12,467 that is really driving the gun violence that we see. 68 00:03:12,467 --> 00:03:16,567 -Too many guns of the wrong kind are in the wrong hands. 69 00:03:16,567 --> 00:03:18,834 -State leaders have taken up the challenge 70 00:03:18,834 --> 00:03:21,901 from Schentrup and others with an ambitious plan 71 00:03:21,901 --> 00:03:25,267 to overhaul our gun laws in Olympia this year. 72 00:03:25,267 --> 00:03:28,501 The legislation includes a proposed ban on the sale 73 00:03:28,501 --> 00:03:30,367 of so-called assault weapons, 74 00:03:30,367 --> 00:03:32,901 requirements for a 10-day waiting period, 75 00:03:32,901 --> 00:03:35,968 and safety classes for anyone who buys a gun... 76 00:03:35,968 --> 00:03:39,000 plus a bill that would allow people to sue gun sellers 77 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,534 and manufacturers for the negligent sale of a firearm. 78 00:03:42,534 --> 00:03:44,968 -Okay. Do you want to verify there's no ammo in here? 79 00:03:44,968 --> 00:03:47,634 -Jane Milhans says the state's way off target. 80 00:03:47,634 --> 00:03:50,267 -So, this is a semi-automatic rifle. 81 00:03:50,267 --> 00:03:52,701 -She's a certified firearms instructor 82 00:03:52,701 --> 00:03:57,033 who was inspired to teach others after an incident 15 years ago 83 00:03:57,033 --> 00:03:59,367 when she says two men broke into her house. 84 00:03:59,367 --> 00:04:02,767 -I'm all for safety training as a firearm instructor, 85 00:04:02,767 --> 00:04:06,300 but what I'm opposed to is forced training. 86 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:10,200 And then you're gonna just slowly pull the trigger. 87 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,934 -Milhans has a long wait list for classes like these 88 00:04:13,934 --> 00:04:16,234 and says the state's training requirements 89 00:04:16,234 --> 00:04:18,033 could stop people from exercising 90 00:04:18,033 --> 00:04:22,000 their constitutional right to own a gun for a year or more. 91 00:04:23,367 --> 00:04:25,300 -Take your finger off the trigger. 92 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:27,567 -And she says with many crimes committed 93 00:04:27,567 --> 00:04:30,000 using illegally obtained guns, 94 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,100 a ban on the sale or transfer of these semi-automatic firearms 95 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:36,267 won't do a thing to stop gun violence. 96 00:04:36,267 --> 00:04:38,667 -If we get more guns away -- off the street, 97 00:04:38,667 --> 00:04:40,901 the only one who's gonna be giving up their guns 98 00:04:40,901 --> 00:04:42,901 are law-abiding citizens. 99 00:04:42,901 --> 00:04:45,033 -It's an argument you've heard before. 100 00:04:45,033 --> 00:04:49,901 -This bill will limit our rights 101 00:04:49,901 --> 00:04:51,667 and our ability to bear arms. 102 00:04:51,667 --> 00:04:56,133 -These weapons of war have no business in our community. 103 00:04:56,133 --> 00:04:58,834 -But Representative Strom Peterson says 104 00:04:58,834 --> 00:05:01,501 this year in Olympia there's something different. 105 00:05:01,501 --> 00:05:03,434 -This is the first time the bill has ever made it 106 00:05:03,434 --> 00:05:04,701 to the House floor. 107 00:05:04,701 --> 00:05:07,033 -Peterson, a Democrat who began sponsoring 108 00:05:07,033 --> 00:05:10,133 gun-control legislation back in 2016 109 00:05:10,133 --> 00:05:13,400 after an incident in his district of Mukilteo, 110 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,801 says a movement of young people, even young legislators 111 00:05:16,801 --> 00:05:19,267 who have been through school lockdown drills, 112 00:05:19,267 --> 00:05:21,868 has pushed this bill further than ever before. 113 00:05:21,868 --> 00:05:23,701 -Their voices have been louder and louder 114 00:05:23,701 --> 00:05:24,968 over the last few years, 115 00:05:24,968 --> 00:05:26,934 and we finally listened as a legislature. 116 00:05:26,934 --> 00:05:29,501 -And he says, with a recent Crosscut-Elway poll 117 00:05:29,501 --> 00:05:32,901 showing 56% of those surveyed statewide 118 00:05:32,901 --> 00:05:35,767 in support of outlawing the sale and transfer 119 00:05:35,767 --> 00:05:37,968 of most semi-automatic weapons, 120 00:05:37,968 --> 00:05:40,634 his bill and the other gun measures in Olympia 121 00:05:40,634 --> 00:05:42,801 may have the momentum to become law. 122 00:05:42,801 --> 00:05:45,968 -I think these are common-sense regulations. 123 00:05:45,968 --> 00:05:47,334 Many other states have them. 124 00:05:47,334 --> 00:05:49,767 And I think they'll help save lives. 125 00:05:49,767 --> 00:05:52,400 -That's not to say there aren't more fights ahead. 126 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,234 -All those in favor say, "Aye." 127 00:05:54,234 --> 00:05:56,234 -Aye! 128 00:05:56,234 --> 00:05:57,601 -Opposed say, "Nay." 129 00:05:57,601 --> 00:05:59,234 -[Louder] No! 130 00:05:59,234 --> 00:06:01,467 -The amendment is not adopted. 131 00:06:01,467 --> 00:06:04,300 -States have to be very careful 132 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:06,501 about how they restrict gun rights. 133 00:06:06,501 --> 00:06:08,634 -Republican Representative Jim Walsh 134 00:06:08,634 --> 00:06:10,767 from the 19th District in Aberdeen 135 00:06:10,767 --> 00:06:14,400 points to the U.S. Supreme Court's recent Bruen decision, 136 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,400 which says new gun restrictions 137 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,467 have to be consistent with the country's 138 00:06:18,467 --> 00:06:23,133 "historical tradition of firearm regulation." 139 00:06:23,133 --> 00:06:26,167 Plus, our state constitution specifically notes 140 00:06:26,167 --> 00:06:29,734 a right for people to own guns for the purpose of self-defense. 141 00:06:29,734 --> 00:06:32,734 -Guns are tools, and in the wrong hands, 142 00:06:32,734 --> 00:06:34,634 they can be devastating tools. 143 00:06:34,634 --> 00:06:37,200 And in the right hands, they can be tools of justice. 144 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,334 -Walsh says behind the push to pass these bills 145 00:06:40,334 --> 00:06:42,601 a court challenge is right around the corner. 146 00:06:42,601 --> 00:06:46,734 -I believe these proposals are constitutionally dubious 147 00:06:46,734 --> 00:06:49,167 and are very likely to be overturned. 148 00:06:49,167 --> 00:06:51,234 -But before that potential fight, 149 00:06:51,234 --> 00:06:54,367 there's a fight to the finish of the legislative session, 150 00:06:54,367 --> 00:06:56,300 with the future of gun regulations 151 00:06:56,300 --> 00:06:57,534 hanging in the balance. 152 00:06:57,534 --> 00:06:59,601 [ Gunshot ] 153 00:06:59,601 --> 00:07:01,434 And joining me to discuss a little bit more 154 00:07:01,434 --> 00:07:03,100 about these issues, I have with me 155 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:05,400 Dylan O'Connor, government affairs director 156 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,367 for the Alliance for Gun Responsibility. 157 00:07:07,367 --> 00:07:08,601 Dylan, good to have you here. 158 00:07:08,601 --> 00:07:10,334 And I also have with us Dave Workman, 159 00:07:10,334 --> 00:07:12,434 editor in chief of TheGunMag.com, 160 00:07:12,434 --> 00:07:14,934 a publication of the Second Amendment Foundation. 161 00:07:14,934 --> 00:07:16,567 We have a ton of ground to cover today. 162 00:07:16,567 --> 00:07:18,501 I want to try to touch on several gun bills 163 00:07:18,501 --> 00:07:20,300 that the state's considering this session. 164 00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:22,434 And let's start with House Bill 1240. 165 00:07:22,434 --> 00:07:25,467 So, this is the proposed ban on the sale or transfer 166 00:07:25,467 --> 00:07:27,367 of what the bill calls assault rifles, 167 00:07:27,367 --> 00:07:29,434 military style semi-automatic rifles. 168 00:07:29,434 --> 00:07:31,100 An important point -- this bill would not 169 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:32,534 take away anyone's gun. 170 00:07:32,534 --> 00:07:33,868 It specifically focuses on 171 00:07:33,868 --> 00:07:36,467 when a firearm of this type is sold or transferred. 172 00:07:36,467 --> 00:07:39,000 So, this bill has been around for six years, Dylan. 173 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,968 It made it to the floor for the first time here in 2023. 174 00:07:42,968 --> 00:07:45,734 Lawmakers passed it out of the House here in early March. 175 00:07:45,734 --> 00:07:48,234 Talk about why you believe and why lawmakers believe 176 00:07:48,234 --> 00:07:49,501 a bill like this is needed 177 00:07:49,501 --> 00:07:51,000 and also what impact it could have. 178 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,667 -The top six ranked, by fatalities, 179 00:07:54,667 --> 00:07:56,167 in mass shootings in the United States 180 00:07:56,167 --> 00:07:59,400 have all been, you know -- involved assault weapons. 181 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,400 -Mm-hmm. -Research shows that 182 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,234 when assault weapons are used in mass shootings, 183 00:08:04,234 --> 00:08:07,601 up to six times more people are shot, 184 00:08:07,601 --> 00:08:10,300 70% more people are killed. 185 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:12,934 And if we had, you know, a federal assault-weapons ban 186 00:08:12,934 --> 00:08:15,701 or a state-level assault-weapons ban in place, 187 00:08:15,701 --> 00:08:19,434 there's data supporting that 70% fewer fatalities 188 00:08:19,434 --> 00:08:20,968 and injuries might occur. 189 00:08:20,968 --> 00:08:23,501 I'll also add that the bill's been around for six years, 190 00:08:23,501 --> 00:08:25,467 but this year is a little different 191 00:08:25,467 --> 00:08:27,801 in that we just feel like the psychological place 192 00:08:27,801 --> 00:08:30,334 politically this year is completely different 193 00:08:30,334 --> 00:08:33,334 than it has been in previous years. 194 00:08:33,334 --> 00:08:35,100 I think we've done a lot of work in Washington state 195 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:37,100 to make sure that folks are -- 196 00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:39,601 folks are taking good votes on these bills for sure. 197 00:08:39,601 --> 00:08:41,534 -Dave, what's your response to what Dylan is saying 198 00:08:41,534 --> 00:08:43,000 and what impact do you think 199 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,400 a measure like House Bill 1240 would have on the public? 200 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,033 -Well, first, we're gonna have to find out 201 00:08:47,033 --> 00:08:49,033 whether or not it's constitutional. 202 00:08:49,033 --> 00:08:52,467 -Yeah. -There's three cases 203 00:08:52,467 --> 00:08:55,667 that I know of right now in federal court, 204 00:08:55,667 --> 00:08:58,868 one in Maryland, one in California, one in Oregon... 205 00:08:58,868 --> 00:09:00,667 -Okay. -...challenging 206 00:09:00,667 --> 00:09:01,934 the constitutionality 207 00:09:01,934 --> 00:09:03,834 of a so-called assault-weapons ban. 208 00:09:03,834 --> 00:09:05,767 They're not really assault weapons. 209 00:09:05,767 --> 00:09:07,634 They're not weapons of war at all. 210 00:09:07,634 --> 00:09:09,667 They're semi-automatic rifles. 211 00:09:09,667 --> 00:09:12,234 And beyond that, not everybody 212 00:09:12,234 --> 00:09:14,033 wants to vote for this in Olympia, too. 213 00:09:14,033 --> 00:09:16,968 You'll find a lot of people who are opposed to it, 214 00:09:16,968 --> 00:09:19,033 for not just the reason 215 00:09:19,033 --> 00:09:21,667 that there are pending federal lawsuits, 216 00:09:21,667 --> 00:09:24,167 but they just think it's the wrong way to go. 217 00:09:24,167 --> 00:09:26,701 If you look at the FBI Uniform Crime statistics 218 00:09:26,701 --> 00:09:29,133 for any given year, 219 00:09:29,133 --> 00:09:32,000 rifles of any kind, including semi-automatics, 220 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,300 are used in a fraction of homicides in the country, 221 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:36,734 anywhere from 2% to 4%, 222 00:09:36,734 --> 00:09:41,100 and yet they always seem to fall into the focus 223 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:43,501 simply because of the appearance of these things. 224 00:09:43,501 --> 00:09:45,834 But they don't operate any differently 225 00:09:45,834 --> 00:09:48,767 than any other semi-automatic rifle 226 00:09:48,767 --> 00:09:52,834 like the Winchester 100 or Remington 7600. 227 00:09:52,834 --> 00:09:56,701 They're basically semi-automatic rifles. 228 00:09:56,701 --> 00:09:57,868 One press of the trigger, 229 00:09:57,868 --> 00:10:00,400 one thing goes bang, and that's it. 230 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,400 -And just with regard to that, do you think this is 231 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,868 going to have an impact on public safety that is positive? 232 00:10:04,868 --> 00:10:06,567 I know a lot of lawmakers think so. 233 00:10:06,567 --> 00:10:09,567 -Well, a lot of lawmakers can think what they want. 234 00:10:09,567 --> 00:10:11,000 I'm not sure if it is or not, 235 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,167 because the most prevalent firearm 236 00:10:15,167 --> 00:10:17,567 involved in crime is a handgun. 237 00:10:17,567 --> 00:10:19,100 And we already know handguns 238 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:21,601 are protected by the Second Amendment. 239 00:10:21,601 --> 00:10:25,667 And it's not too much of a stretch of anybody's imagination 240 00:10:25,667 --> 00:10:28,601 that in the aftermath of the Bruen ruling 241 00:10:28,601 --> 00:10:30,567 back in June of last year... 242 00:10:30,567 --> 00:10:32,901 -U.S. Supreme Court. -Right. 243 00:10:32,901 --> 00:10:35,868 I think that the lower federal courts 244 00:10:35,868 --> 00:10:38,100 are probably going to come down on the side of 245 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:40,234 these things are protected by the Constitution. 246 00:10:40,234 --> 00:10:42,334 So banning them is going to be pretty tough. 247 00:10:42,334 --> 00:10:44,267 -Got it. And I'm going to come back to that legal argument 248 00:10:44,267 --> 00:10:46,100 in just a little bit, but, Dylan, I just wanted 249 00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:47,801 to talk about this because I've heard it from 250 00:10:47,801 --> 00:10:51,467 a number of different people who are in favor of making sure 251 00:10:51,467 --> 00:10:53,634 that their gun rights are protected here, 252 00:10:53,634 --> 00:10:54,901 that this really wouldn't have 253 00:10:54,901 --> 00:10:56,334 that much of an impact on public safety. 254 00:10:56,334 --> 00:10:58,434 You heard what Dave was talking about with handguns, 255 00:10:58,434 --> 00:11:00,501 that those are actually more prevalent in crime here, 256 00:11:00,501 --> 00:11:02,100 this is only going to restrict the rights 257 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:03,367 of law-abiding people. 258 00:11:03,367 --> 00:11:04,901 I want to make sure I cover that point with you. 259 00:11:04,901 --> 00:11:07,667 -Yeah, sure. Well, to just point out, 260 00:11:07,667 --> 00:11:11,334 there's a big difference between a semi-automatic .22 261 00:11:11,334 --> 00:11:15,033 and a AR-15 with a 30-round magazine, right? 262 00:11:15,033 --> 00:11:18,033 One is able to shoot 30 rounds into a crowd of people 263 00:11:18,033 --> 00:11:19,367 in less than a minute. 264 00:11:19,367 --> 00:11:22,200 And the other is just simply not capable 265 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,033 of doing that -- that level of damage. 266 00:11:25,033 --> 00:11:27,300 I'll also say that these -- 267 00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:29,267 And we'll talk about this more, but... 268 00:11:29,267 --> 00:11:32,934 Time and time again, for the last several decades, 269 00:11:32,934 --> 00:11:35,234 federal courts at the Court of Appeals level 270 00:11:35,234 --> 00:11:37,534 have upheld firearms regulations 271 00:11:37,534 --> 00:11:39,234 and gun-safety laws as constitutional. 272 00:11:39,234 --> 00:11:41,000 We can dig into that a little bit more. 273 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,434 -Okay. please. Yeah. -But for sure, yeah. 274 00:11:42,434 --> 00:11:43,801 I mean, these laws 275 00:11:43,801 --> 00:11:45,834 are just not in conflict with the Second Amendment. 276 00:11:45,834 --> 00:11:47,634 -There was a poll back in December. 277 00:11:47,634 --> 00:11:49,033 Crosscut-Elway did this up. 278 00:11:49,033 --> 00:11:51,334 And 56% of the people that were polled said, 279 00:11:51,334 --> 00:11:53,267 "We would support a ban on the sale 280 00:11:53,267 --> 00:11:55,100 or transfer of most semi-automatic weapons." 281 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:57,300 You have a lot of legislators, you have a lot of people 282 00:11:57,300 --> 00:11:59,334 in the public who are saying, "We don't want these guns 283 00:11:59,334 --> 00:12:01,100 to be bought and sold." Can you respond to that? 284 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:02,567 -Sure. 285 00:12:02,567 --> 00:12:05,834 First, remember that most of these appellate court rulings 286 00:12:05,834 --> 00:12:07,234 that Dylan mentioned, 287 00:12:07,234 --> 00:12:09,367 that was prior to the Bruen ruling of last June. 288 00:12:09,367 --> 00:12:11,033 And the courts are going to have to 289 00:12:11,033 --> 00:12:13,267 go through a lot of those cases, I think, 290 00:12:13,267 --> 00:12:15,801 because they're going to have to be reconsidered. 291 00:12:15,801 --> 00:12:19,801 Now, as far as the public opinion polls, 292 00:12:19,801 --> 00:12:23,067 I think we're all pretty happy that constitutional rights 293 00:12:23,067 --> 00:12:25,434 are not subject to public opinion polls. 294 00:12:25,434 --> 00:12:28,033 A right is a right, and it's very special. 295 00:12:28,033 --> 00:12:30,634 We don't decide rights at the voting booth. 296 00:12:30,634 --> 00:12:34,300 We don't decide rights by taking an opinion poll. 297 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:35,801 That's a right. 298 00:12:35,801 --> 00:12:38,968 -I want to, if I could, move on to House Bill 1143 here. 299 00:12:38,968 --> 00:12:40,901 So, this is the measure establishing 300 00:12:40,901 --> 00:12:42,968 a 10-day waiting period to purchase a firearm 301 00:12:42,968 --> 00:12:44,501 and mandatory safety training. 302 00:12:44,501 --> 00:12:46,334 As you remember, everybody, Washington voters 303 00:12:46,334 --> 00:12:48,033 approved a 10-day waiting period 304 00:12:48,033 --> 00:12:50,267 to purchase semi-automatic guns in 2018, 305 00:12:50,267 --> 00:12:52,267 so we already have that in place. 306 00:12:52,267 --> 00:12:54,000 Dave, let me ask you this question here. 307 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,701 What are your thoughts about this idea, 308 00:12:55,701 --> 00:12:58,467 expanding that waiting period to all firearms 309 00:12:58,467 --> 00:13:00,701 and also adding in that safety training requirement? 310 00:13:00,701 --> 00:13:03,534 -Well, how long of a waiting period do you put on 311 00:13:03,534 --> 00:13:05,934 any other constitutionally protected right? 312 00:13:05,934 --> 00:13:08,634 I don't know of any. 313 00:13:08,634 --> 00:13:11,067 You don't have to wait to vote. 314 00:13:11,067 --> 00:13:13,300 You don't have to wait to get an attorney 315 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:14,734 if you're in trouble. 316 00:13:14,734 --> 00:13:19,934 I mean, you have rights to exercise there. 317 00:13:19,934 --> 00:13:21,934 I'm not sure that it would help at all. 318 00:13:21,934 --> 00:13:25,167 People who are determined to commit mayhem 319 00:13:25,167 --> 00:13:26,767 are going to do it. 320 00:13:26,767 --> 00:13:30,934 And I think time and again we've seen that happen. 321 00:13:30,934 --> 00:13:34,100 The guy that fired all those shots 322 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:36,601 and killed all those people in Las Vegas, 323 00:13:36,601 --> 00:13:40,534 he spent, well, months, if not a couple of years 324 00:13:40,534 --> 00:13:43,100 getting the firearms that he used in that thing. 325 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:44,267 And a 10-day waiting period, 326 00:13:44,267 --> 00:13:46,868 he'd have probably thought, "Big deal." 327 00:13:46,868 --> 00:13:48,701 If that had been the law at that time, 328 00:13:48,701 --> 00:13:50,901 I don't think it would have stopped him at all. 329 00:13:50,901 --> 00:13:53,601 And at the same time, 330 00:13:53,601 --> 00:13:56,667 how much of an inconvenience do you want to put 331 00:13:56,667 --> 00:13:58,167 on a law-abiding citizen 332 00:13:58,167 --> 00:13:59,901 who has committed no crime at all? 333 00:13:59,901 --> 00:14:01,834 -Fair enough. And, Dylan, do you have a response 334 00:14:01,834 --> 00:14:04,067 to this piece about the waiting period, the training, et cetera? 335 00:14:04,067 --> 00:14:05,601 -Yeah, absolutely. 336 00:14:05,601 --> 00:14:07,467 I will say that a 10-day waiting period -- 337 00:14:07,467 --> 00:14:09,701 And the more, you know, 338 00:14:09,701 --> 00:14:13,501 we can delay folks in crisis from obtaining a firearm -- 339 00:14:13,501 --> 00:14:15,501 -We're talking about suicide potentially here. 340 00:14:15,501 --> 00:14:18,767 -75% of firearm deaths in Washington state are suicides. 341 00:14:18,767 --> 00:14:20,367 Right? So, you know... 342 00:14:20,367 --> 00:14:22,667 I mean, it has impacts on domestic violence. 343 00:14:22,667 --> 00:14:24,200 It has impacts on suicide rates. 344 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,667 It has impacts on homicide rates, as well. 345 00:14:26,667 --> 00:14:29,200 But putting a barrier between the immediate availability 346 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,067 of a firearm, who -- Somebody could be in crisis 347 00:14:31,067 --> 00:14:32,467 and the person across the counter 348 00:14:32,467 --> 00:14:34,968 may not be able to evaluate that appropriately. 349 00:14:34,968 --> 00:14:37,067 Just a mandatory 10-day waiting period 350 00:14:37,067 --> 00:14:38,501 is a wonderful public-health... 351 00:14:38,501 --> 00:14:40,834 -If I could follow up on that training piece -- Excuse me. 352 00:14:40,834 --> 00:14:42,501 Just to follow up on that training piece, 353 00:14:42,501 --> 00:14:44,501 I talked to one instructor who was saying, 354 00:14:44,501 --> 00:14:46,601 we put a big demand out there for gun-safety courses, 355 00:14:46,601 --> 00:14:48,501 it could be months, it could be a year 356 00:14:48,501 --> 00:14:50,601 before a law-abiding citizen could actually get a firearm. 357 00:14:50,601 --> 00:14:52,033 Do you have some thoughts about that? 358 00:14:52,033 --> 00:14:54,167 -Well, you know, the safety training courses 359 00:14:54,167 --> 00:14:56,033 that are delineated in the bill 360 00:14:56,033 --> 00:14:58,267 are the ones that are already publicly available 361 00:14:58,267 --> 00:15:01,334 as incentivized by 1639, passed in 2018. 362 00:15:01,334 --> 00:15:03,567 So these are not -- They don't -- 363 00:15:03,567 --> 00:15:04,968 The current version of the bill 364 00:15:04,968 --> 00:15:06,801 does not include a live-fire training course, 365 00:15:06,801 --> 00:15:08,968 which, you know, raises the cost a little bit. 366 00:15:08,968 --> 00:15:10,701 It does make things a little less available. 367 00:15:10,701 --> 00:15:12,934 So we kept that in mind when we were drafting this, 368 00:15:12,934 --> 00:15:14,434 the current version of the bill. 369 00:15:14,434 --> 00:15:16,334 -Yeah. Got it. Dave, did you have a response to this piece? 370 00:15:16,334 --> 00:15:19,000 -Well, I'm a certified firearms instructor. 371 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,434 -That's right. 372 00:15:20,434 --> 00:15:24,634 -And, frankly, I don't know why anybody should be forced 373 00:15:24,634 --> 00:15:26,701 to take a training course in order 374 00:15:26,701 --> 00:15:30,501 to exercise a constitutionally protected right. 375 00:15:30,501 --> 00:15:34,634 I'm not saying that training is a bad idea. That's nonsense. 376 00:15:34,634 --> 00:15:38,133 Everybody who owns a firearm should avail themselves, 377 00:15:38,133 --> 00:15:43,467 whether it's a woman or man, to get competent training 378 00:15:43,467 --> 00:15:45,767 from a competent firearms instructor, 379 00:15:45,767 --> 00:15:49,567 especially if they bought a gun for personal protection. 380 00:15:49,567 --> 00:15:52,000 But the notion that you have to go do something 381 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,934 that might cost you a bit of money 382 00:15:54,934 --> 00:15:57,000 in order to exercise a right that's protected 383 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,701 by both the state and federal constitutions, 384 00:15:59,701 --> 00:16:03,434 I'm not sure that could even fly if it was tested in court. 385 00:16:03,434 --> 00:16:05,767 You know, we're in a whole new era right now 386 00:16:05,767 --> 00:16:08,033 because of the Bruen ruling. -Mm-hmm. 387 00:16:08,033 --> 00:16:12,767 -And I think a lot of ground still has to be plowed 388 00:16:12,767 --> 00:16:16,033 to depend on what is right under the Constitution 389 00:16:16,033 --> 00:16:20,968 and what can be expanded in terms of gun control. 390 00:16:20,968 --> 00:16:23,267 -Yeah. Yeah. I promise we'll get to those legal issues. 391 00:16:23,267 --> 00:16:24,934 But did you have any rejoinder to that 392 00:16:24,934 --> 00:16:26,501 that you wanted to bring up, Dylan, 393 00:16:26,501 --> 00:16:28,467 with regard to the training and the requirement 394 00:16:28,467 --> 00:16:30,534 forcing people essentially to have this training? 395 00:16:30,534 --> 00:16:32,601 -Yeah, I mean, I think we want to incentivize 396 00:16:32,601 --> 00:16:36,868 responsible firearms ownership. And part of the safety training 397 00:16:36,868 --> 00:16:38,868 is about just understanding the data 398 00:16:38,868 --> 00:16:41,801 surrounding owning a firearm and safe storage practices, 399 00:16:41,801 --> 00:16:43,868 things like that, making sure that folks 400 00:16:43,868 --> 00:16:45,601 lock up their firearms and safely store them 401 00:16:45,601 --> 00:16:48,334 so they don't get accessed by a minor or prohibited person. 402 00:16:48,334 --> 00:16:49,801 Right? These are just basic, 403 00:16:49,801 --> 00:16:51,801 basic public health safety measures that we -- you know, 404 00:16:51,801 --> 00:16:53,634 we educate people on their medication. 405 00:16:53,634 --> 00:16:56,701 We ask folks to take a driving course for their license. 406 00:16:56,701 --> 00:16:58,067 None of that's immediate. 407 00:16:58,067 --> 00:16:59,834 You can't just walk in and get a car without a license. 408 00:16:59,834 --> 00:17:01,834 Right? We want to make sure that we're making sure 409 00:17:01,834 --> 00:17:03,534 that folks are as safe as possible. 410 00:17:03,534 --> 00:17:05,033 -Wait a minute. -Please. 411 00:17:05,033 --> 00:17:08,300 -Driving is not a constitutionally-protected 412 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:11,801 right, driving is a privilege, and you know it. 413 00:17:11,801 --> 00:17:15,534 Don't start comparing driving with owning a firearm, 414 00:17:15,534 --> 00:17:18,167 which is protected by the Constitution. 415 00:17:18,167 --> 00:17:20,400 You know, that is such a specious argument. 416 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,167 And even the governor brought that up here 417 00:17:23,167 --> 00:17:24,868 a couple of months back. 418 00:17:24,868 --> 00:17:27,834 And I just had to roll my eyes because he knows better. 419 00:17:27,834 --> 00:17:29,901 -I would like to move on to Senate Bill 5078 420 00:17:29,901 --> 00:17:31,067 here, if I could. 421 00:17:31,067 --> 00:17:32,667 This would make gun sellers and manufacturers 422 00:17:32,667 --> 00:17:35,501 legally liable for the negligent sale of a firearm. 423 00:17:35,501 --> 00:17:37,334 And this is something that states like California, 424 00:17:37,334 --> 00:17:40,434 Delaware, New Jersey and New York have put into law. 425 00:17:40,434 --> 00:17:42,634 Dylan, I wanted to bring this up because the basic thought 426 00:17:42,634 --> 00:17:44,300 is if you're a victim of gun violence, 427 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:47,167 you can potentially sue a gun seller or manufacturer. 428 00:17:47,167 --> 00:17:48,667 And I wanted to ask how this would work, 429 00:17:48,667 --> 00:17:51,801 because federally, we have this 2005 430 00:17:51,801 --> 00:17:54,000 Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. 431 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,534 I know you're all familiar with this. 432 00:17:55,534 --> 00:17:58,367 Basically, it says the gun industry cannot be held liable 433 00:17:58,367 --> 00:18:00,133 for the harm coming from its products. 434 00:18:00,133 --> 00:18:01,868 Some thoughts about what this bill is talking about, 435 00:18:01,868 --> 00:18:03,000 5078? 436 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,300 -Yeah, well, I think it's -- you know, 437 00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:06,133 it's important that we incentivize industries 438 00:18:06,133 --> 00:18:08,100 that have a public health risk to make sure 439 00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:13,133 that they are engaging with their sales and folks 440 00:18:13,133 --> 00:18:16,534 who are purchasing and acquiring firearms, 441 00:18:16,534 --> 00:18:18,868 just making sure that we're as safe as possible. 442 00:18:18,868 --> 00:18:20,667 And, you know, we want to make sure 443 00:18:20,667 --> 00:18:22,701 that we disincentivize inappropriate behavior, 444 00:18:22,701 --> 00:18:25,934 including advertising practices that target younger folks 445 00:18:25,934 --> 00:18:28,067 or over militarized, 446 00:18:28,067 --> 00:18:29,968 you know, sort of advertising practices 447 00:18:29,968 --> 00:18:31,868 and just making sure that the firearm industry members 448 00:18:31,868 --> 00:18:33,934 are responsible members of society. 449 00:18:33,934 --> 00:18:37,334 And like we hold cigarette manufacturers accountable 450 00:18:37,334 --> 00:18:40,133 for the public health threat that they pose on society 451 00:18:40,133 --> 00:18:44,000 or fire or vehicle manufacturers for a faulty product, 452 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,267 We want to make sure that folks in the industry 453 00:18:46,267 --> 00:18:48,400 are being incentivized to behave responsibly. 454 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,801 -A legal method by the states has been successful 455 00:18:50,801 --> 00:18:53,567 in some cases, notably for the families of the nine victims 456 00:18:53,567 --> 00:18:55,400 of the Sandy Hook shootings in Connecticut. 457 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,501 They won $73 million in a settlement 458 00:18:57,501 --> 00:18:59,801 with Remington in that case. -Well... 459 00:18:59,801 --> 00:19:01,167 -And I wanted to talk about this -- 460 00:19:01,167 --> 00:19:03,567 just what impact do you think a measure like 5078 461 00:19:03,567 --> 00:19:06,133 could have in the state of Washington if it passes? 462 00:19:06,133 --> 00:19:07,701 -Remington didn't settle anything. 463 00:19:07,701 --> 00:19:10,000 Remington's insurers settled that. 464 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,734 Remington didn't even exist when that happened. 465 00:19:12,734 --> 00:19:14,834 Remington, at that time -- -They were found liable, 466 00:19:14,834 --> 00:19:16,734 though -- -They had been dissolved, 467 00:19:16,734 --> 00:19:19,834 and the insurance companies cut their losses. 468 00:19:19,834 --> 00:19:23,200 They decided to go along with that. 469 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,033 The notion that you hold somebody's responsible 470 00:19:27,033 --> 00:19:30,567 financially for the harm that's created by someone else 471 00:19:30,567 --> 00:19:32,868 using their product -- 472 00:19:32,868 --> 00:19:34,601 believe me, the auto manufacturers 473 00:19:34,601 --> 00:19:37,501 are watching this one really closely. 474 00:19:37,501 --> 00:19:40,934 Again, I think we're going to have to fall back 475 00:19:40,934 --> 00:19:43,133 on what is constitutional. Cigarettes -- 476 00:19:43,133 --> 00:19:46,734 there's nothing in the Bill of Rights about smoking. 477 00:19:46,734 --> 00:19:52,634 And nobody thought about vehicles back in 1791. 478 00:19:52,634 --> 00:19:55,934 And that's where the Supreme Court ruling has taken us. 479 00:19:55,934 --> 00:19:59,834 -Trying to guide us in that way. -And so here again, 480 00:19:59,834 --> 00:20:03,801 I think that when they run up against the federal law, 481 00:20:03,801 --> 00:20:06,834 especially in light of the Bruen ruling, 482 00:20:06,834 --> 00:20:08,234 we're going to see a lot of attorneys 483 00:20:08,234 --> 00:20:09,834 making a lot of money. -Okay. 484 00:20:09,834 --> 00:20:11,868 I guess I just want to get to that basic point, though. 485 00:20:11,868 --> 00:20:14,634 What responsibility does the gun industry 486 00:20:14,634 --> 00:20:16,267 have to reduce gun violence? 487 00:20:16,267 --> 00:20:19,267 Do you think they have none? I mean, what are you saying? 488 00:20:19,267 --> 00:20:21,367 -I don't know anybody in the firearms industry 489 00:20:21,367 --> 00:20:22,868 who isn't responsible. 490 00:20:22,868 --> 00:20:27,701 I know a lot of those people. I've dealt with them for years. 491 00:20:27,701 --> 00:20:31,968 No gun maker that I know of has ever marketed a firearm 492 00:20:31,968 --> 00:20:35,767 just so somebody could go out and commit mayhem with it. 493 00:20:35,767 --> 00:20:38,834 -Okay. -You look at the number 494 00:20:38,834 --> 00:20:41,434 of firearms that are owned in the United States right now, 495 00:20:41,434 --> 00:20:45,133 somewhere north of 400 million, according to some estimates, 496 00:20:45,133 --> 00:20:50,968 and only a small fraction of those firearms are ever involved 497 00:20:50,968 --> 00:20:54,634 in a violent crime. -Okay. 498 00:20:54,634 --> 00:20:56,300 -The numbers here in Washington state 499 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,234 are kind of reflective of that. We've probably got 500 00:20:59,234 --> 00:21:01,234 a million and a half to 2 million gun owners 501 00:21:01,234 --> 00:21:02,334 in this state. 502 00:21:02,334 --> 00:21:07,467 I know we've got almost 700,000 concealed 503 00:21:07,467 --> 00:21:10,234 pistol licenses in this state. 504 00:21:10,234 --> 00:21:13,734 Okay.- -And rarely do any 505 00:21:13,734 --> 00:21:18,300 of those people ever get involved in a violent crime. 506 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:23,634 And so the gun manufacturers market their products 507 00:21:23,634 --> 00:21:26,901 to the responsible consumer. 508 00:21:26,901 --> 00:21:30,968 If those guns are stolen or whatever, 509 00:21:30,968 --> 00:21:32,934 they could be involved in a crime. 510 00:21:32,934 --> 00:21:34,701 -I just think about this, though, Dave. 511 00:21:34,701 --> 00:21:36,868 I mean, when you see ads like Bushmaster 512 00:21:36,868 --> 00:21:39,534 saying, "Your man card is being reissued," 513 00:21:39,534 --> 00:21:41,968 and there's a photo of an AR-15, I mean, 514 00:21:41,968 --> 00:21:43,334 what goes through your mind when you see 515 00:21:43,334 --> 00:21:45,100 something like that? Because I think some of 516 00:21:45,100 --> 00:21:47,234 these ads can be inflammatory in some ways. 517 00:21:47,234 --> 00:21:48,667 -Well... 518 00:21:48,667 --> 00:21:52,467 I look at those ads as maybe trying to sell a product 519 00:21:52,467 --> 00:21:56,300 to some 20-something guy who who wants to play Rambo. 520 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:57,567 I don't know. I mean, 521 00:21:57,567 --> 00:21:59,868 you look at those things and you wonder, "Gee, 522 00:21:59,868 --> 00:22:03,100 maybe that's -- that's not what would appeal to me 523 00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:06,033 as a firearms owner, as somebody who wanted to buy one." 524 00:22:06,033 --> 00:22:11,868 But, you know, they have a broad audience out there 525 00:22:11,868 --> 00:22:14,501 and sometimes, that gets people to buy em. 526 00:22:14,501 --> 00:22:16,567 I don't think that appeals to the kids at all. 527 00:22:16,567 --> 00:22:20,234 I think that's the early -- the 20-something people 528 00:22:20,234 --> 00:22:24,267 that are looking for maybe a gun to shoot a three gun match 529 00:22:24,267 --> 00:22:26,667 or they want to go out and compete someplace. 530 00:22:26,667 --> 00:22:29,100 Yeah. -You know, that's -- 531 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:31,567 that's the kind of mentality I think that's doing. 532 00:22:31,567 --> 00:22:33,834 -I think Dave just said it. We don't want to market firearms 533 00:22:33,834 --> 00:22:36,267 to 20-somethings that want to play Rambo. 534 00:22:36,267 --> 00:22:38,467 Right? That's very dangerous, right? 535 00:22:38,467 --> 00:22:41,067 We can't control for whether a young man 536 00:22:41,067 --> 00:22:44,601 who might have -- be experiencing 537 00:22:44,601 --> 00:22:45,767 a mental health crisis 538 00:22:45,767 --> 00:22:47,567 or be ideologically motivated to violence. 539 00:22:47,567 --> 00:22:50,734 We certainly don't want to take the risk of advertising firearms 540 00:22:50,734 --> 00:22:53,000 to that person. And I will say, you know, 541 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,033 Dave said that they're not advertising to children. 542 00:22:55,033 --> 00:22:57,734 I push back on that. There actually are 543 00:22:57,734 --> 00:23:00,400 a growing number of advertisements from the -- 544 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,067 from the firearms industry, specifically targeting children 545 00:23:04,067 --> 00:23:06,033 to try to make sure that when they do turn of age, 546 00:23:06,033 --> 00:23:07,367 that they're buying their products. 547 00:23:07,367 --> 00:23:10,534 There's an AR Junior product on the market right now 548 00:23:10,534 --> 00:23:12,901 that is a scale model, AR-15 549 00:23:12,901 --> 00:23:14,300 that doesn't shoot live rounds, of course, 550 00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:19,033 but it specifically, like, looks like Dad's gun, right? 551 00:23:19,033 --> 00:23:21,000 If that's not marketing to kids, I don't know what is. 552 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,567 -All right. And let me -- I want to make sure 553 00:23:22,567 --> 00:23:24,200 I dive into some of these legal issues. 554 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,434 Dave brought this up earlier with this Bruen decision here. 555 00:23:26,434 --> 00:23:30,267 Are you worried that any changes the state makes to our gun laws, 556 00:23:30,267 --> 00:23:31,367 if these measures do pass, 557 00:23:31,367 --> 00:23:32,968 would not survive a court challenge? 558 00:23:32,968 --> 00:23:36,934 -The Bruen decision and Heller before it does not say 559 00:23:36,934 --> 00:23:39,634 that firearm safety laws are unconstitutional 560 00:23:39,634 --> 00:23:41,901 and that all gun safety laws are unconstitutional. 561 00:23:41,901 --> 00:23:45,167 In fact, both Scalia in the Heller case 562 00:23:45,167 --> 00:23:46,501 and in both the majority 563 00:23:46,501 --> 00:23:49,033 and concurring opinions for Bruen state, 564 00:23:49,033 --> 00:23:51,434 "This is not to be interpreted as an end 565 00:23:51,434 --> 00:23:53,801 all on firearms regulation laws." 566 00:23:53,801 --> 00:23:55,367 It just isn't that, right? 567 00:23:55,367 --> 00:23:57,267 So Bruen, at an 80,000 foot level, 568 00:23:57,267 --> 00:23:59,701 was challenging a case in New York 569 00:23:59,701 --> 00:24:03,234 that had a process by which they issue CPLs, 570 00:24:03,234 --> 00:24:04,634 it's called "shall issue." 571 00:24:04,634 --> 00:24:06,267 So that law enforcement could use discretion 572 00:24:06,267 --> 00:24:09,434 on whether or not they actually permitted somebody 573 00:24:09,434 --> 00:24:14,667 to own a CPL based on local law enforcement discretion. 574 00:24:14,667 --> 00:24:16,834 That was the part that was ruled unconstitutional. 575 00:24:16,834 --> 00:24:18,267 And the other important part of Bruen 576 00:24:18,267 --> 00:24:20,434 is that they ended what's called the two-step test. 577 00:24:20,434 --> 00:24:22,467 And I promise I'm going to go quickly as possible. 578 00:24:22,467 --> 00:24:23,934 -Please, yeah, yeah do it., -So the two-step test 579 00:24:23,934 --> 00:24:27,934 was a process by which courts of appeals around the country 580 00:24:27,934 --> 00:24:29,934 processed Second Amendment claims. 581 00:24:29,934 --> 00:24:32,834 The first step being whether or not the government 582 00:24:32,834 --> 00:24:35,767 can prove that the regulated behavior 583 00:24:35,767 --> 00:24:38,667 or the dispositional behavior around the firearm 584 00:24:38,667 --> 00:24:40,434 that they're looking to regulate 585 00:24:40,434 --> 00:24:42,634 is outside the scope of the original intent 586 00:24:42,634 --> 00:24:44,434 of the Second Amendment. That was step one. 587 00:24:44,434 --> 00:24:48,467 Step two is an evaluation or an analysis 588 00:24:48,467 --> 00:24:52,734 on whether or not the law -- at how close the law gets to 589 00:24:52,734 --> 00:24:55,000 what they interpret as the core of the Second Amendment, 590 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,334 and what the legal -- the law's burden on the right is. 591 00:24:59,334 --> 00:25:01,734 And so they're looking for the government to prove 592 00:25:01,734 --> 00:25:07,267 that the law does not impugn the core of the Second Amendment. 593 00:25:07,267 --> 00:25:10,100 And up until very recently, like Dave says, 594 00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:12,701 courts of appeals interpreted that core as self-defense 595 00:25:12,701 --> 00:25:14,567 in the home, per Heller. 596 00:25:14,567 --> 00:25:17,133 Now, what's happened after Bruen is that two-step test 597 00:25:17,133 --> 00:25:19,367 has been thrown out and firearms laws 598 00:25:19,367 --> 00:25:20,868 are now going to be looked at under the lens 599 00:25:20,868 --> 00:25:23,834 of historical analysis and historical precedent. 600 00:25:23,834 --> 00:25:27,067 Luckily, there's an ocean of historical precedent 601 00:25:27,067 --> 00:25:28,901 around firearms law around the country 602 00:25:28,901 --> 00:25:31,000 that we're starting to look at more deeply. 603 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,767 And why that's -- even with that, why it's so dangerous, 604 00:25:33,767 --> 00:25:36,567 why the Bruens decision is so dangerous is, 605 00:25:36,567 --> 00:25:38,934 you know, in 1810, 1820, 606 00:25:38,934 --> 00:25:41,234 the concept of domestic violence, for example, 607 00:25:41,234 --> 00:25:43,934 and a prohibited person around those behaviors 608 00:25:43,934 --> 00:25:45,267 was completely different. 609 00:25:45,267 --> 00:25:47,767 Women were more viewed as property, for example. 610 00:25:47,767 --> 00:25:50,133 And it just sets us up for some strange legal challenges 611 00:25:50,133 --> 00:25:51,801 and potentially dangerous rulings. 612 00:25:51,801 --> 00:25:53,300 -Got it. Dave, a lot to unpack there. 613 00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:55,167 Some thoughts about Bruen and what Dylan's saying. 614 00:25:55,167 --> 00:25:57,667 -I'm not too sure Bruen was dangerous at all. 615 00:25:57,667 --> 00:26:01,534 I think Bruen reminded us that there's a constitution 616 00:26:01,534 --> 00:26:03,000 and that we have to live by it. 617 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,868 We just can't invent things as we go along. 618 00:26:05,868 --> 00:26:09,968 And that's been the problem ever since the Heller ruling. 619 00:26:09,968 --> 00:26:16,734 The lower federal courts decided to create this two step process. 620 00:26:16,734 --> 00:26:19,167 The Supreme Court last year said, "No, wait a minute. 621 00:26:19,167 --> 00:26:22,167 That's not the way this works." 622 00:26:22,167 --> 00:26:27,868 And I think Clarence Thomas was a genius when he wrote that. 623 00:26:27,868 --> 00:26:29,667 He said, "No, we can't do that. 624 00:26:29,667 --> 00:26:31,601 We're going to stick with the Constitution 625 00:26:31,601 --> 00:26:33,868 because that's -- that's what the country lives by." 626 00:26:33,868 --> 00:26:36,601 I don't know that that's dangerous at all. 627 00:26:36,601 --> 00:26:39,834 Yes, we've got people who commit crimes, dating back all the way 628 00:26:39,834 --> 00:26:43,801 to Adam and Eve and their sons, Cain and Abel. 629 00:26:43,801 --> 00:26:45,968 Cain used a rock. He didn't get a -- you know, 630 00:26:45,968 --> 00:26:48,534 it wasn't the rock's fault, it was Cain's fault. 631 00:26:48,534 --> 00:26:50,000 -Okay. Okay. Alright. 632 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,868 I appreciate all this back and forth, and we need to wrap up. 633 00:26:52,868 --> 00:26:54,033 If we can do the 30-second version, 634 00:26:54,033 --> 00:26:55,167 I'd really appreciate it. 635 00:26:55,167 --> 00:26:56,534 Dylan, some final thoughts for lawmakers 636 00:26:56,534 --> 00:26:57,968 working on these issues in Olympia. 637 00:26:57,968 --> 00:26:59,601 -It's the right thing to do. 638 00:26:59,601 --> 00:27:01,534 You know, we expect that these laws 639 00:27:01,534 --> 00:27:04,400 will be challenged in court. I think almost everything 640 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,501 that we've passed in the last several years, 641 00:27:06,501 --> 00:27:07,868 especially at the ballot initiative level, 642 00:27:07,868 --> 00:27:08,901 has been challenged. 643 00:27:08,901 --> 00:27:10,667 They've been upheld. 644 00:27:10,667 --> 00:27:13,300 We are in a little place in limbo in the Ninth Circuit. 645 00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:15,667 Like Dave says, there are some things waiting to be 646 00:27:15,667 --> 00:27:18,167 ruled on and some things that have gone back and forth. 647 00:27:18,167 --> 00:27:23,133 But it's not so certain or it's not such a precarious position 648 00:27:23,133 --> 00:27:24,467 where we shouldn't do anything. 649 00:27:24,467 --> 00:27:26,400 And we feel really confident about our ability 650 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:27,701 to defend those things. 651 00:27:27,701 --> 00:27:29,667 And I mean, the slate of gun violence 652 00:27:29,667 --> 00:27:31,567 prevention policies on the docket this year 653 00:27:31,567 --> 00:27:34,267 are altogether a huge step forward 654 00:27:34,267 --> 00:27:35,734 in public safety and public health. 655 00:27:35,734 --> 00:27:37,467 -Thank you. 30-second version, David, wrap up. 656 00:27:37,467 --> 00:27:40,033 -Well, I'm not sure if it's a step forward 657 00:27:40,033 --> 00:27:41,968 to do something that's unconstitutional. 658 00:27:41,968 --> 00:27:44,000 We've got to keep that in perspective. 659 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,801 And the ballot initiative that's still in the court, 660 00:27:46,801 --> 00:27:48,167 it's still alive. 661 00:27:48,167 --> 00:27:51,367 And frankly, it was kicked back for further consideration 662 00:27:51,367 --> 00:27:52,868 because of the Bruen ruling. 663 00:27:52,868 --> 00:27:56,601 So as I said earlier, the Bruen ruling, you know, 664 00:27:56,601 --> 00:27:59,234 we're going to be exploring a lot of strange, 665 00:27:59,234 --> 00:28:01,968 interesting ground from now on because of that. 666 00:28:01,968 --> 00:28:03,701 -Okay. Thank you both for your input here. 667 00:28:03,701 --> 00:28:05,767 And we will be right back. 668 00:28:05,767 --> 00:28:09,300 ♪♪ 669 00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:12,133 -What are people saying on social media about the proposal 670 00:28:12,133 --> 00:28:14,133 to ban so-called assault weapons? 671 00:28:14,133 --> 00:28:15,400 One person writes... 672 00:28:21,801 --> 00:28:22,968 Another person says... 673 00:28:30,133 --> 00:28:32,167 We'd like to know what you think. 674 00:28:32,167 --> 00:28:35,567 Send us an e-mail at contact@SeattleChannel.org 675 00:28:35,567 --> 00:28:39,767 or find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. 676 00:28:39,767 --> 00:28:42,167 -Coming up next week, more than half a million 677 00:28:42,167 --> 00:28:44,634 Washingtonians face a hunger cliff 678 00:28:44,634 --> 00:28:47,934 as federal pandemic food benefits come to an end. 679 00:28:47,934 --> 00:28:51,234 With increasing food prices and shrinking donations, 680 00:28:51,234 --> 00:28:54,767 area food banks are struggling to keep their shelves stocked. 681 00:28:54,767 --> 00:28:56,834 Hear from Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal 682 00:28:56,834 --> 00:28:59,200 and other leaders about the urgent work 683 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,000 to combat food insecurity and alleviate poverty in our state. 684 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,934 That's on the next "City Inside Out." 685 00:29:04,934 --> 00:29:06,400 I hope you join us. 686 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:14,701 ♪♪ 687 00:29:14,701 --> 00:29:23,000 ♪♪